fandom commentary part 1000000000

[fwcu]

I keep going down this rabbit hole of like, clicking through random stantwt accounts and really it just makes me hate everything. like I hate it when people don't agree with me, and I hate every iteration of stantwt drama unless it's so dumb that it's funny as fuck, and like I hate it when people like idols I don't like! have better taste you fucking freak!!!

so I think I will stop doing so. but sometimes, really important things that I would have never seen otherwise do show up.

like, this heejin/chuu tweet. like sorry for being a freak rpser who wants girls to kiss but I have been so invested in this pairing since that penguin thing? though obviously, like every other ship I randomly latch onto, it's not as popular of a ship. visually, the reasons are obvious. since they are both the cute pretty ones and around the same size. this is also why nyukyu is not the top tbz otp. also why it took 2 years of nonstop on-camera freak shit for renhyuck to get fandomly acclaimed. I think, especially in terms of rps - fandom perception actually matters more than canonity, because your main source of ship content isn't from the Real People in question, but the fellow shippers. but the double-edged sword of fandom is fanon and fanon, as you may realize, Is Bad.

...

like, in the case of heejin/chuu!!! the lack of a 'hot'/'tall', dare I say 'masc-passing' [less girly?] in the pair is what turns fandom off from it. though I am using the ao3 tag popularity as a metric LOLOL. and it's not like f/f ao3 is booming so it's a pretty bad metric. but, still it's the same reasoning with renhyuck popularity and why pre-hot sauce, where people really could not ignore it anymore, they always got 'they're such good friends!' tag, the way nomin and markhyuck are soooo popular. and why noren and jaemren are constantly in renj's searches even though they're clearly not...whatever is going on with renhaech. like no offense but the fandom need for reasonable opposites and/or reasonable dimorphism [LOL] in their popular pairings is sooo.

though I think for the same reason, dotae being as popular as they are freaks me the fuck out and also makes me happy. imagine both of you are the neurotic type-As and you both bottom in your most popular ao3 ship [JAEHYUN?] and STILL make it to top10 ships in the tag. THAT IS SO BEAUTIFUL. TO ME.

I think I will keep saying more out of pocket ship like this because um, I simply can. also it's like, something that's been bothering me for a while. literally, ao3 is not a good metric OR reference for anything. I will say so right now. it is however, the one I have and therefore will be the one I use. I think that the need for this 'dimorphism' shows up most in the fiction as well. like fans don't tend to look at on-camera moments and go like 'omg! renjun was totally being the bottom here and haechan the top!' like yes, I do substitute top/bottom for girl/boy but I don't use girl/boy as a signal that means renjun is going to be the soft cute one of the half and haechan is going to be the manly bad boy. HONESTLY, I'll say it right now. renhaech is suuuch a bad example to use for this comparison because like. um. they're Like That. just generally. renjun emotional, sensitive, aries girl of the pair and haechan is the mischievous, charming, teasing boy of the pair. like to compare them to a [bad] fandom acclaimed ship, it's like leo/calypso from pjo but with more depth because they are #Real_People.

my use of 'dimorphism' here stems from concept of sexual dimorphism in biology, which is just when males and females look different. I'm just using it to necessitate that for a ship to have mass fandom appeal, there has to be a kind-of 'opposites' factor to them where they have to fit well into distinct 'tropes' to make for ease-of-access shipping. which defeats the purpose of shipping imo. but I will digress.

probably what is the best example of forced dimorphism - nomin! I think the twitter crowd, or the twitter crowd that I know off, thinks of them differently. but ao3 is still rife with babyboy soft jaemin x bad boy jock jeno so. I will also say, the difference in twitter crowd perception is that jeno just has to be slutty jock bottom. it's like, almost always a top/bottom thing, where it does somewhat matter who bottoms, but for people who genuinely don't care about the sex, it's about who's being pursed/who's the pursuer. you know, not to use severely outdated terminology, but the concept of 'erastes'/'eromenos'. I think it just stems from how relationships in the media have been portrayed - usually, it's the girl who's the main character and who's feelings the love story revolves around - and that's what affects top/bottom perceptions. since in cishet sex, the girl does 'bottom'. if I really had to pin down a reason, yeah it's heteronormativity, but it's specifically that - if we're talking about sex specifically - the girl is the erotic focus. it's hilarious that men like don't make women come because so much porn is about how good the girl feels. that the sexual acts are being done to the girl. like make that make sense!

sorry that this literally isn't coherent or organized, firstly I am not here to write actual essays. just my stream of thought. second. GODDDD it makes shit soooo boring. this isn't just in fanwork. it's sooooooooo rife in BL and it's sooooo boring because of that. there's like 3 character archetypes that the uke will always be, and then 3 character archetypes that the seme will always be. and even when you have like seme-like uke, and uke-like-seme it's not as groundbreaking as it seems ever. the problem is just that it's trope-based writing, as opposed to character-focused writing. which makes sense, so much of this work [fanwork, manga, webtoon] is like such a fast-paced, quick-delivery thing where the writer just needs you to recognize that this is this character and that is that character and then just dump the story on you.

wrt to dr specifically. it's just renjun. because he does have so many female traits and traits that align with typical uke/girl isms, then ends up getting portrayed as those things. but like the way those traits manifest in renjun [softness, seriousness, emotionality, sensitivity, stubborness] are so different than how they tend to get written.

and I mean. haechan...if u know what ao3 has done to him...loool hopefully miss idolrapper never reads this. but all the time I think about how she so badly wants haechan to get fucked and have whoever's babies, but like when u read her haechs!!! he is literally not the sassy femme gayboy bottom other popular markhyuck authors portray him as!!! and to be clear, she still writes him with some of those tropes in mind, but it's so much easier to spot where it's really Haech! because he does have some of those traits, and her love for him shines through in portraying them as they are versus like, the 'sexy' trope other authors want him to be. like you can have both!!! ch-ch-ch-cherry bomb is the perfect example of it! to be clear I have never really been into bottom hyuck, which I think is clear, and a lot of the time knowing that the author wants a specific half to bottom tends to ruin the experience of a fic, but like. idk reem's hyuck has always been perfect. so literally no matter how turned off I am by both top mark and bottom haechan, this fic is still like. soooo perfectly encapsulating of them both.

but also. I think fic is sooo badly written in general recently that dimorphic characterization is literally a symptom rather than the cause. anyway like, looking at the most written ships in the nct tag really reallyyyy proves that popular fandom ships tend towards this kind of difference. anyway Idk it's just a collection of thoughts. hit that like button if you enjoyed. subscribe, comment, uhhh please don't post on twitter. etc!

Comments

[lowhours]

always enjoy a fandom analysis with side serving of spotting How Gender Works . During the OG Nizgate #First_Cancellation_via_Dreamwidth some of us actually did end up discussing what about the "rj is inferior dh" is so erotic-romantic, imo from a specifically queer pov of want-to-be/fuck-you, and the general queer attention given to complicating/troubling experiences of sameness and difference. Im sure there are maaaany people who have written about it with more specificity (esp from a psychoanalysis perspective or like, study of erotics and desire or whatever) but I really like this from sara ahmed on sameness/difference in her book queer phenomenology:

"This anecdote is a reminder that how lesbians are read often seeks to align their desire with the line of the heterosexual couple or even the family line. The disappearance of lesbian desire simultaneously involves the erasure of signs of difference. When lesbians are represented as desiring in a way that is out of line, such desire is often seen as inauthentic or lacking in the presumed absence of ‘‘difference.’’ That lesbian desire is usually described as ‘‘same sex desire’’ (i.e., homosexual) works in very specific ways. This association between homosexuality and sameness is crucial to the pathologizing of homosexuality as a perversion that leads the body astray. This idea—that lesbians desire ‘‘the same (sex)’’ by desiring women—needs to be contested. As O’Connor and Ryan argue: ‘‘Another way in which gender can be interpreted too literally is that it becomes the defining feature of lesbian relationships. The charge that homosexual relationships ‘‘deny difference’’ is a familiar one. Some psychoanalysts see the sameness of gender as in itself a barrier to ‘real’ sexual desire, as meaning that such relationships are inevitably narcissistic and deny difference’’ (1993: 190). In other words, women desiring women does not mean that they desire the same: sameness as well as difference is invented as fantasy (Phillips 1997: 159). The very idea of women desiring women because of ‘‘sameness’’ relies on a fantasy that women are ‘‘the same.’’

Such a fantasy is also played out in the psychoanalytic approaches to ‘‘lesbian merger’’—in the idea that women, when they tend toward each other as objects of desire, tend to lose any sense of divergence. As Beverly Burch argues: ‘‘The traditional psychoanalytic explanation of merger in lesbian couples is based on assumptions of pathology: homosexuality is ‘arrested development,’ or a lack of personal boundaries, as a result of early childhood deficits’’ (1997: 93). We can see this in the work of Margaret Nichols, who describes the tendency ‘‘for female-to-female pairings to be close and intimate, sometimes to a pathological excess’’ (1995: 396–97). She further suggests that ‘‘in a merged relationship, only one entity exists, not two’’ (1995: 398). Such a fantasy of lesbian merger might even function as a case of countertransference: a desire to merge with the lesbian, to incorporate her force, to undo the threat she poses to the line that is assumed both to divide the sexes and to lead each to the other. The threat of merger is attributed to the same-sex couple rather than to the heterosexual couple in part as a response to the presumption that ‘‘difference,’’ described in terms of opposition, keeps each sex in line. Furthermore, the idea that without men women would merge, constructs women as lacking only insofar as it elevates the concepts of separation and autonomy that secure the masculine and heteronormative subject as a social and bodily ideal. The fantasy that shapes this line of argument is that heterosexuality involves love for difference, and that such love is ethical in its opening to difference and even the other (see Warner 1990: 19; Ahmed 2004a). The heterosexual subject ‘‘lines up’’ by being one sex (identification) and having the other (desire). I have already contested this assumption by suggesting that compulsion toward heterosexual intimacy produces social and familial resemblance. We can question the assumption that desire requires ‘‘signs’’ of difference, as something that each body must ‘‘have’’ in relation to ‘‘another.’’ Some have argued that we should eroticize sameness ‘‘on different lines’’ as a way of contesting the equation of desire and difference (Bersani 1995). I would suggest that the very distinction of same/difference can be questioned, especially insofar as the distinction rests on differences that are presumed to be inherent to bodily form and to how bodies have already cohered.

Within sexology the idea that desire requires signs of difference has been taken for granted. For example, Ellis argues that ‘‘even in inversion the imperative need for a certain sexual opposition—the longing for something which the lover does not himself possess—still rules on full force’’ (1975: 120, emphasis added). We could note, first, that di√erence becomes desirable only given a fantasy of possession: that there are things we possess and other things we do not, such that those that are ‘‘not’’ can be possessed to complete one’s possessions. In a way, the desire for the ‘‘not’’ sustains this fantasy of possession, of sexual orientation as a relation of ‘‘having,’’ even if one ‘‘has’’ what one is ‘‘not,’’ this ‘‘has’’ extends what one ‘‘is.’’


This is part of a more broad analysis of how heterosexuality produces sameness (the same family structures again and again) and also how this sameness/difference anxiety plays out in lgbt community conflicts, especially around the figures of the butch and femme. idk, just thought it might be of interest!

[fwcu]

ahhhh ty ty for this teeks......this took me a couple rereads but

"divergence becomes desirable only given a fantasy of possession: that there are things we possess and other things we do not, such that those that are ‘‘not’’ can be possessed to complete one’s possessions"

The threat of merger is attributed to the same-sex couple rather than to the heterosexual couple in part as a response to the presumption that ‘‘difference,’’ described in terms of opposition, keeps each sex in line. Furthermore, the idea that without men women would merge, constructs women as lacking only insofar as it elevates the concepts of separation and autonomy that secure the masculine and heteronormative subject as a social and bodily ideal. The fantasy that shapes this line of argument is that heterosexuality involves love for difference, and that such love is ethical in its opening to difference and even the other (see Warner 1990: 19; Ahmed 2004a). The heterosexual subject ‘‘lines up’’ by being one sex (identification) and having the other (desire). I have already contested this assumption by suggesting that compulsion toward heterosexual intimacy produces social and familial resemblance. We can question the assumption that desire requires ‘‘signs’’ of difference, as something that each body must ‘‘have’’ in relation to ‘‘another.’’

are the parts that stood out most to me... also the parts I understood the most...identification>desire dynamic is always v interesting to think about. rlly interesting when framed like this ahhhh

[lowhours]

kdljfdksl sorry for just like, dumping academic shit on u w no context but i'm glad there were parts that you found interesting!!

[lovebalance]

“ I hate it when people don't agree with me, and I hate every iteration of stantwt drama unless it's so dumb that it's funny as fuck, and like I hate it when people like idols I don't like! have better taste you fucking freak!!! ”

i need yo see your astrology chart immediately its for my mental health.


ANYWAYS such a good post as usual, like i always enjoy how you talk about kpop rps unapologetically and freely and also sound so smart as you do, its such a fun read each time. your talk about the top/bottom/boy/girl thing was interesting and ive never approached it like that before!

anyways you’re an icon! 💘

[fwcu]

i am like. um... gemini sun. and like cancer/aquarius for the other two. idk which is which but I do have a cancer stellium if that helps!

yeahhh I think there's nothing wrong about being frank about this sort of topic when you're aware of how you're approaching it? I'm not sure if any of it was actually smart, but I do make efforts to sound pretentious in hopes of sounding so, so I'm glad it worked :D

I think when I started writing about 'top/bottom' sorting i realized that I talk about ships in a similar girl/boy dichotomy. but I think the difference is that I approach girl/boy in a social lens (ie who is more aware of how they look, who is more callous because they have the privilege to be so, who is looking at who and how, etc etc) where to me it isn't necessarily about femininity v masculinity... but that could just be me rationalizing it for myself in attempts to not be hypocrite LOLOLOL.
versus top/bottom, in media + fandom, tends to characterize, as I said - who's the omega who's the alpha... yk.

any ty ty for reading. I rlly liked the point from ur most recent post about how the diff between western/eastern media was the space for women to write stories for women.. I also found that v illuminating

[pochakko]

epic niz post as usual.......ive been literally brain dead recently so i kind of have no thoughts besides that It was interesting and i liked it :) ummm i literally know nothing about nomin though i have of course heard the legends of shockingly terrible ao3 nomin so its interesting that u used them as an example of the forced dimorphism point. like....ive never been in the trenches, i cant say i know what its like but i guess its just likeeeee surprising to me bc ive always ASSUMED that the #1 nomin selling point is their sameness.....like i may not be into it but they literally do have canonical twin clone hands of fate that push us down the same road i am you you are me thing going on....it just seems so hard to ignore/force difference into LMAO like sure their personalities Are pretty different i guess but visually they are SO similar like....the fact that theyre the exact same height/equally handsome and/or basically hold the exact same position in the group are the 2 j names that get mixed up all the time in question......idk there is no larger point i was just like Is that so..........

[fwcu]

YEAHHH.. man I didn't even consider nomin with those characteristics in mind I was just like. but they're both like guys who aren't gay who are gay. yeah but nsfw nomin twt and like nomin ao3 is like. well jaemin had pink hair and likes to coddle so he's the soft babygirl and jeno looks tough and has muscles so he's the bad boy :) and it's like. Sure. but Not Really. Not At All. jaemin's like complete recharacterization fucks me up so bad in general because what?! !?! are u seeing!!!

this is also kinda unrelated but I rmbr this vid of jaemin putting stickers onto jeno and calling him cute or whatever and some nsdream acc was like 'awww sweet little babyboy jaemin putting stickers on daddy jeno....<3' which was so !?#NR!!?@ to me because if anything jaemin was literally infantilizing jeno and calling him His cute baby in the clip!>!>>! people will rewrite anything to suit their tastes I guess....

like nomin's appeal is nottt that but we will digress and cry about it i guess.

[pochakko]

help girl the historical revisionism/ummm on the spot moment by moment revisionism that is apparently happening in the ao3 nomin tag umm jdhkfdjhkdfdhfjkdf first of all if you think jaemin is like that THATS WHAT HE WANTS YOU TO THINK ITS A SNAKE HABITAT AND YOUR TAKING THE BAITbut he also doesnt want you to think that but like he does. maybe its ummm a win for him personally that his smokescreens are working this well but seriously its too well djskldsksdl How can this be. this level of delusion is almost admirable but like seriously what is the appeal for you if you have to completely rewrite the basis or whatever hjdfkdhfkjdfkd Anyway.....thats none of my business. guys who arent gay who are gay real af

[prizefig]

tc already got to what i was going to say about the eroticization of difference/reproducing sameness lol so i will just say you are so right that heechuu is so good actually. they are literally trying so hard and doing the most with their lesbait fanservice exhibitionism and NO ONE appreciates their efforts!!!! they even do a light bit of the butch/femme thing if you look closely enough but everyone else's bad taste and poor perception can't be helped i guess

[fwcu]

glad that I now have TWO people who will link lesbian academia whenever I talk bullshit. thank u guys. truly. man that sounds v unsincere I promise it's not.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE LINK SOME HEECHU IF U ARE SO INCLINED I WOULD LOOOOOOVEEEE TO SEE. also I completely believe all of this 100% because that pic literally is just sooo fucking baity there's no way it's not some kind of trend everyone else refuses to catch onto TwT

[prizefig]

well i don't read as much theory as teeks does, so i was just going to riff on the general concept based on whatever amount of theory i have absorbed

i think most of the biggest heechuu moments are in the video you linked, but the other ones i can think of off the top of my head are this kiss(?!), the time they went to tokyo together, and these pics [one, two]

[arcsecond]

"like I hate it when people don't agree with me, and I hate every iteration of stantwt drama unless it's so dumb that it's funny as fuck, and like I hate it when people like idols I don't like! have better taste you fucking freak!!!" SO TRUE... enjoying all the canon vs fanon thoughts bcs yeah ppl have different preferences but sometimes fanon is just bad </3 no im not sorry i have better taste than everyone else!! as former nctzen im actually extremely allergic to current nct for the most part but i agree so much with all of this... the dimorphism thing is so real and is definitely why i was super into dotae for bit in 2019 or whenever they went on tour to the us and is also why i fell out of najun despite them being my original dream otp... will just add that haechleft + markright is a way of life actually <3

[fwcu]

thank u haechleft markright is the only way imo. also what's up my fellow nct hater... there is a reason I say dreamies over nct dream like I don't want them associated with any of those men please renjun I'll save u... also generally so mad over jaemren like they're GOOD people are just not understanding whyyyyy. ty ty for reading and enjoying LOL

[chaeyeonakgae]

oh i absolutely agree with you... especially when looking at the most popular and talked about loona ships! there's chuuves where yves is like the mature sexy girlboss business woman and chuu is the cute cheerful soft socially awkward talkative funny one. and there's hyewon, where olivhye is the bitchy done with life girlie and gowon is her softer counterpart. to me it has always been unconscious that i gravitate towards those ships... i never really thought if it like purposefully choosing opposites it's sort of engrained ? into me in some way. societal influence or whatever.
anyways! i really appreciate your take on this because its made me a lot more aware of the people i ship. everytime a duo peaks my interest i often look at what characteristics drew me to them, and whether differences in their personalities or appearances are playing a part in that. much respect to ... everything u write actually?? especially your dongren tinhat the way u think is soooo 🤯